Prabhupada: Now our, our preaching is, "Here is the controller." Now, you may take it or not take it. That is different thing. But we say, "Here is the controller."

Krishna Tiwari: Only difference of opinion is this, that, uh, one… Oh, you say or I say, it doesn't matter. It's not reflected to you. Anybody who says that they know about God, they have actually no, no, no, no way to prove any way, one way or the other.

Prabhupada: No. We don't know by your process.

Krishna Tiwari: By any process.

Prabhupada: That is your process. Your process is, you are trying to ascend. But we are taking knowledge from directly God. That is the difference.

Krishna Tiwari: That's where my trouble is, and I…

Prabhupada: No, no, your trouble must be there.

Krishna Tiwari: Yes.

Prabhupada: Because you're godless.

Krishna Tiwari: Oh, no. Not true.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is your problem.

Krishna Tiwari: Not true. Not true.

Prabhupada: That is your trouble.

Krishna Tiwari: No, no… Okay, go on saying like that. Fine. [laughs]

Prabhupada: Yes, because you are godless in this sense: because you are born in India, born in a brahmana family, and you do not believe Krsna the Supreme Lord.

Krishna Tiwari: Oh. I do not believe, but uh, I do believe that God is, but I do not understand whether the… [indistinct] God or not. I don't know.

Prabhupada: You do not understand, that is your godlessness. That is your godlessness, because…

Krishna Tiwari: No, that's not my godlessness at all. [laughs]

Prabhupada: Yes…

Syamasundara: Please listen while he explains the process of how to know God.

Prabhupada: Brahmana means one who knows the Brahman. Brahma janati iti brahmana. So at least you are not a brahmana, because you do not know the Brahman.

Krishna Tiwari: I do not believe in classes anyway.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Krishna Tiwari: It's all right.

Prabhupada: Yes. So there, that is your defect. One has to become a brahmana. One has to. But you're deviated from brahmanism.

Krishna Tiwari: I'm glad I did. [laughs] I'm really happy I did. I can assure you, Swami.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Krishna Tiwari: If I meet God, I'll tell Him I'm glad I did. [laughs]

Prabhupada: That's all right. The demons always say like that. [devotees laugh]. The demons say always like that. That is the fashion of the demons.

Krishna Tiwari: No, it's not true. [laughing] You know, Swamiji, what I am telling you, it's not true, because I know I'm a brahmana's son.

Prabhupada: You are.

Krishna Tiwari: I know a lot about…

Prabhupada: You are.

Krishna Tiwari: A lot about reading Gita myself…

Prabhupada: You have become a demon.

Krishna Tiwari: Huh?

Prabhupada: From brahmana you have become a demon.

Krishna Tiwari: I have not become demon, and God knows it. I am much more better man, right now…

Prabhupada: Demons always know better than God.

Krishna Tiwari: Is that right? I don't know better than God. Oh, I never said that. What I'm saying is God knows I'm not a bad man. I'm not a demon. [laughs]

Prabhupada: Demon's position is always to challenge God, that "I know better than You."

(May 16, 1973, Los Angeles)